The Cart Before the Horse
This present world is in darkness. What is wrong is obvious to all men. In the kingoms of this world evil rules in places of authority, in the systems of every thing that is of man. The days are evil. Malice, murder, and every evil work are seen through out the world. Because of the darkness, men fashion their lives on what they can see, hear, and reason about the world in which they are a participant. Such knowledge is grounded in blindness. No one can see in the dark, where there is no light.
This basis is the cause of believing in lies. If a lie is thought to be truth and rehearsed in their thinking, the end results in wrong actions. Then the law of sowing and reaping in it's affect causes all sorts of calamities. Man is a creature of his beliefs. What ever he believes is what he speaks. And what ever he speaks he will do. And what ever he does will produce after it's own kind. This is the way of all men.
Along came Jesus; he preached "the kingdom of God". This is not what we have seen in the earth, but a heavenly kingdom. Jesus declared it to be eternal, never ending. This is news, not as the earthly where all men die. Jesus declared it to be unchanging ruled by God the creator of all things. Not as with men who are subject to the flow of power and authority. Jesus declared it to be without evil or darkness, but in righteousness. Now this is news! The order of "the kingdom of God" is just to all with-out any of the things that corrupt. This is a place where there is no lack, no sickness, no trouble, nothing unpure will ever enter this kingdom. Every need is supplied, every desire is pure, and God is enjoyed forever.
Jesus provided the way to enter this kingdom, through His sacrifice and resurrection. We who have believed are now the citizens of this "heavenly kingdom". The prayer of Jesus was; "thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven". This is very instructive. We see that the will of God is done in heaven. We see exactly what kind of kingdom it is, "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost". Where there is no lack, no sickness, no sorrow, no poverty, but abundance of life in all avenues. Even the streets are pure gold, there is no limit to our joy.
So here we see THE WILL OF GOD. He has given us this picture of heaven to know what is established by His good will. Any thing that doesn't belong in heaven, is not God's will. His kingdom is already established, as the example of the life we are now to live. Your life should be a reflection of the heavenly kingdom, here, now in this earthly realm. "ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". This is God's will.
This brings us to our issue; "the Cart before the Horse". In our ignorance of the will of God, we as all men, have believed lies. Now that we see the truth of God, we will have to dispose of all the fables of the past. There is no mixture with God. The old and the new will not work together. The Lord alone is to be our life. And His word stands alone.
Where the will of God is known, faith is born. Where faith is born the mind and the speech will think right thoughts, and say right words. Where these are at work the person will act in accordance with there words. Where these words and actions are working in a life; the good and the blessing of the will of God will be manifest. And the world will see the glory of the Lord rest upon you, and will be drawn to Him.
This is the news; "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." IICor5:17-19
So take a look around at your life, if anything is there that is not the goodness of God, get rid of it. Sickness, illness, confusion, sorrow or pain. Or any thing that is not in heaven. God didn't give any one any of those things. He has given us His name to use against them, to heal, to cast out devils, to set free, to preach His good news of the gospel.
The ministry of reconciliation in the "SUFFERING" that we are to endure, to be open to the injury of rejection by the world. This is our "SUFFERING", and to endure the temptation to sin, by the grace of God. That's the only Godly suffering. To suffer with Christ in reconciling the world to God.
This basis is the cause of believing in lies. If a lie is thought to be truth and rehearsed in their thinking, the end results in wrong actions. Then the law of sowing and reaping in it's affect causes all sorts of calamities. Man is a creature of his beliefs. What ever he believes is what he speaks. And what ever he speaks he will do. And what ever he does will produce after it's own kind. This is the way of all men.
Along came Jesus; he preached "the kingdom of God". This is not what we have seen in the earth, but a heavenly kingdom. Jesus declared it to be eternal, never ending. This is news, not as the earthly where all men die. Jesus declared it to be unchanging ruled by God the creator of all things. Not as with men who are subject to the flow of power and authority. Jesus declared it to be without evil or darkness, but in righteousness. Now this is news! The order of "the kingdom of God" is just to all with-out any of the things that corrupt. This is a place where there is no lack, no sickness, no trouble, nothing unpure will ever enter this kingdom. Every need is supplied, every desire is pure, and God is enjoyed forever.
Jesus provided the way to enter this kingdom, through His sacrifice and resurrection. We who have believed are now the citizens of this "heavenly kingdom". The prayer of Jesus was; "thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven". This is very instructive. We see that the will of God is done in heaven. We see exactly what kind of kingdom it is, "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost". Where there is no lack, no sickness, no sorrow, no poverty, but abundance of life in all avenues. Even the streets are pure gold, there is no limit to our joy.
So here we see THE WILL OF GOD. He has given us this picture of heaven to know what is established by His good will. Any thing that doesn't belong in heaven, is not God's will. His kingdom is already established, as the example of the life we are now to live. Your life should be a reflection of the heavenly kingdom, here, now in this earthly realm. "ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". This is God's will.
This brings us to our issue; "the Cart before the Horse". In our ignorance of the will of God, we as all men, have believed lies. Now that we see the truth of God, we will have to dispose of all the fables of the past. There is no mixture with God. The old and the new will not work together. The Lord alone is to be our life. And His word stands alone.
Where the will of God is known, faith is born. Where faith is born the mind and the speech will think right thoughts, and say right words. Where these are at work the person will act in accordance with there words. Where these words and actions are working in a life; the good and the blessing of the will of God will be manifest. And the world will see the glory of the Lord rest upon you, and will be drawn to Him.
This is the news; "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." IICor5:17-19
So take a look around at your life, if anything is there that is not the goodness of God, get rid of it. Sickness, illness, confusion, sorrow or pain. Or any thing that is not in heaven. God didn't give any one any of those things. He has given us His name to use against them, to heal, to cast out devils, to set free, to preach His good news of the gospel.
The ministry of reconciliation in the "SUFFERING" that we are to endure, to be open to the injury of rejection by the world. This is our "SUFFERING", and to endure the temptation to sin, by the grace of God. That's the only Godly suffering. To suffer with Christ in reconciling the world to God.
posted by pete porter | 10:55 AM
20 Comments:
Excellent post Pete! Its refreshing to read! Keep up the good work!
GBYAY
Hi Bryan, while I no doubt appreciate your thoughts in our on-going discussion, and I agree with some of your points, you continue to evade some of my more pointed questions.
You have yet to address Paul's thorn - his suffering. How about the saints who "by faith" endured torture, sufferings and executions?
Jesus wasn't wealthy, and neither were His disciples. What about this in Acts 2:45: and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
You have suffering in " ". And capitalized. What is the significance of that? Illness, trials, poverty - are these not sufferings?
"So take a look around at your life, if anything is there that is not the goodness of God, get rid of it. Sickness, illness, confusion, sorrow or pain. Or any thing that is not in heaven. God didn't give any one any of those things. He has given us His name to use against them, to heal, to cast out devils, to set free, to preach His good news of the gospel."
Whoa, Bryan. This isn't entirely Biblical. Yes, God bestows gifts of healing, deliverance etc, but He again, He doesn't give all gifts to all people.
Bryan, just how do you propose that 'we' "get rid of it." You also continue to evade the facts that godly, faithful Believers, followers of Christ, saved people suffer illness, etc. Where are your Bible references for this, huh?
I would really be interested to know exactly what you would tell my husband who suffers from degenerative disk disease. And I'm very serious - what do you tell him, and other Believers who are ill. And I pray you are not of the ilk who say that people are not healed because of their sin. Where is the Scripture?
"Where the will of God is known, faith is born. Where faith is born the mind and the speech will think right thoughts, and say right words. Where these are at work the person will act in accordance with there words. Where these words and actions are working in a life; the good and the blessing of the will of God will be manifest. And the world will see the glory of the Lord rest upon you, and will be drawn to Him."
Yikes, Bryan. I think Scripturally, we see examples of faith being birthed through obedience to God.
Something else you didn't address -(and this one was really disturbing) How do you NOT catagorize illness as a trial? You made a distinction between the two. I'm wondering if you can show, biblically, that they are indeed two different things.
OK, I realize this comment is long and disconnected. But my thoughts are sort of that, as I'm at work and keep getting distracted. :)
Hi Gayla,
1st, Paul's thorn and others, "To suffer with Christ in reconciling the world to God". Those who had received the word of God and were persecuted because of that.
2nd, in Acts everyone had what was needed. That doesn't sound like poverty! Jesus became poor, so that we might become rich. He took on our poverty to be the supply of God's riches.
3rd, the " " are to set an item apart. If you can agree that God reigns in heaven, where there is no sickness or infirmity, then we know this to be his will. If you insist on getting your doctrine from the world view, then you are missing the truth about God. I don't care if the whole church is sick, it doesn't make that the will of God!
4th, The name of Jesus is above every thing that can be named. Jesus created all things, and all things are subject to him. As Peter said of the Crippled Begger in Acts 3:16. "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see." This is what I would tell any one that is sick. We can get rid of any other infirmity the same way.
5th, God said, my people are destroyed by lack of knowledge. If we refuse to believe it's God's will to heal all, then how can we have faith for healing? When a person is born of God their mind has to be renewed by the word. If the word is not presented in the power of it's truth, it can't bear fruit, and produce the life.
6th, distinction between sickness/trail. Let's look a the Israel nation at the time of Moses deliverance. There were no sick or infirmity amoung them, for God's blessing was on them. But these people had to fight other kingdoms to enter the promise land. The same with us, we can have this blessing, and war in health against the forces of darkness.
Gayla, please re-read this post and try to visualize the goodness and willingness, and love of God, who is eager to do this for us. I said a month ago that I would be posting on a different line. This for now is a good start. If I'm right in what I say, the church is still immature in their understanding of the will of God.
Be Blessed,
Bryan
I agree that enduring rejection is one of the worst things to suffer. One mourns the future that might have been.
Brothers John and Phil, I meant to thank you both for your continued encouragement yesterday. I got caught up in suppling an answer for Gayla, and forgot.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Otho,
Nice to have you come by, thanks for the thoughful comment. The hope is that one plants another waters, and God can make it grow.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Pete, enjoyed the post, however...
"Sickness, illness, confusion, sorrow or pain. Or any thing that is not in heaven. God didn't give any one any of those things."
God still uses such things to test and perfect our faith. We are to count all things as joy "because the testing of your faith develops perseverance" (Ja. 1:3)
For instance, on several occasions God uses sickness as judgment or trial. Consider Christ's words to the "Jezebel" in the church of Thyatira in which Christ stated that He would put her and the others who practiced sin with her on a bed of suffering and He also stated that He would strike her children dead (Rev. 2:20-23). The list goes on, Moses' hand turned leprous by God, Hezekiah's deadly boil used by God to turn Hezekiah to repentance, the serpents used to strike the children of Isreal for their idolatry, Paul's thorn (as already mentioned) which could have very well been malaria, etc.
God may not always "give" but He certainly does allow for the purposes of His great glory.
Brad
I believe in the complete sovereignty of God. To believe otherwise is to say that there is some greater force in the universe usurping His authority. As He created the universe and everything in it, would it not stand to reason that God was the creator of evil and what we consider "bad" things, as well? Ilness included? If not, then who or what greater force in the universe did?
This particular doctrine has increased my faith immeasurably, because I know that ultimately, He is indeed in control; He alone is sovereign and that there is no chaos - even when it appears so at times. Evil is not willy-nilly; it is under the authority of and controlled by God alone. Again, to say otherwise would be to say that there is some force out there greater than God. Of course, I'm going a step further in saying that He created it, but if He didn't then who did? There is no power greater than God, so ultimately, He indeed created 'all things.' All is inclusive.
That said, I would much rather believe that whatever comes my way in life, is allowed, controlled, given - whatever - by the sovereign God, who loves me. What He is doing is transforming me into the image of Christ. All we have to do is take a look at Job's life.
Job says in 5:18, "For He inflicts pain, and gives relief; He wounds, and His hands {also} heal."
That's pretty clear.
Job also says in 2:10, "Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?"
And Job said in 1:21:
" Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
This is the work of a sovereign God. It is God who gives, who takes, inflicts, heals etc, etc.
And even if God 'allows' satan to mess with us in whatever way, that is still God's ultimate governing over our lives.
Bryan, Scriptually, I believe you're continuing to take big leaps in meaning and application. How do you 'know' there was no infirmity within the Israelites? It's pretty clear from the Word, that folks died. There is no Scripture to support that God wants us all rich and healthy. There just isn't. If that were trued, THEN ALL BELIEVERS WOULD BE. There is a slew of Scripture, however, that says otherwise. Also, we're never told in Scripture what Paul's thorn is, so there you're making another assumption.
And ultimately it is not about what God can do for me. It's not about me. It's about Him. It's about my obedience to Him, come what may. It's about His holiness, His righteousness and His goodness. It's for His namesake and For His glory.
Bryan, believe me, I know the goodness and love of God. He rescued me from myself. He healed the wounds of my heart and made (is making) me whole again. His grace and mercy toward this broken human being is unfathomable. He rescued me from the pit, and most definitely put my feet on solid ground. :)
Oh one more thing.
I think we all need to be very careful when we try to limit God - by saying what He emphatically will or won't do. He is God and we are not.
Psalm 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.
I don't think this verse is in the Word randomly. It indeed has meaning.
"What is wrong is obvious to all men."
"This basis is the cause of believing in lies."
I must be missing the boat, here. What are these lies? Do we all believe them? Are we all destined to Hell? If not, what is your point? Is this not how God said it is to be. Did he not say the road to Heaven is narrow, and the road to Hell is wide? I am not a "gloomy gus", but I like to be realistic. The world is not a great place. It never has been. Their will always be believers and non-believers. Their will always be sickness. This is not a sign of sin. I pray you never get old if you think being sick is a sign of not pleasing God. My grandma had a stroke forty years ago. She lived in a wheelchair for thirty-seven years before she united with God. She was the most Christian person anyone who reads this has ever met. She lived her life serving her Father. She attended church 3 times a week her entire life. Don't forget for the last 37 years of her life it was quite a chore for her to even use the restroom, let alone go to church. Her husband, my Grandpa, was as much of a saint as her. He lived his life for his Father as well, at the same time helping his disabled wife do the same. He worked for the gas company where one day he started his truck, and it ignited a leaky gas line. The truck went up in flames with him holstered by his seat belt. He received third degree burns over 60 percent of his body. He still helped his wife serve her Father. My Grandma, in her last weeks, suffered from kidney failure and many other things. Is this because she did not please God? Is this because she wasn't right with God? It was because God knew she could handle it. Grandpa could handle it, too. There is no pain in Heaven, yet Jesus was crucified on the cross. Why was this? Was he not right with God?
Broken Messenger,
Welcome to one of the most controversial blogs. There is no holds barred here, all arguments are considered, and discussed. I didn't intend it that way, but here we are, and happy to oblige.
God is Holy and perfect, he has no sickness or illness to give. Neither is He confused, or in sorrow or pain. James put it this way; "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." Notice also the statement, "who does not change". So I conclude that only good comes from God, and that will not change, He will not ever give bad or evil, or sickness, or etc..
Tests and trials come because we are in a world of darkness. These are from the forces of darkness as described by Paul, "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph: 6:12 We can count them joy because we have the victory of Jesus to use against these, and to overcome. As Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer (joy), I have overcome the world." So we are to exercise this victory over these dark forces, and win.
Sin causes problems; not God. In the church of Thyatira, Jesus warned that unless they repented they were placing themselves into an enemy camp, and would suffer the consquences.
Truely God is to be Glorified. Because He is able to use evil for good doesn't mean that He needs evil to show His goodness. He is good, period.
Brad, an interesting set of questions, that I'm sure many other have as well, thank you for you comments.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Hello Gayla!
God created all things, including angels. He has given them also the ability to choose. Satan chose to rebell against his creator, this is the origin of sin. It is not in God or his creation power. It is foreign to Him and in opposition to His creation. Because it exist doesn't mean it's greater, it means that God (who is greater) had to exercise His way to overcome and judge it in righteousness. This is part of what Jesus' work accomplished. And this also shows that indeed God rules. But He is not working with or through anything evil, He is righteous and Holy and pure. There is no evil in Him.
As in James 1:13; "When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
This shows that Job was in ignorance of God. (although he didn't accuse God of wrong doing) And was rebuked by his friend, and then by God.
You accuse me of taking leaps; these are giant steps! To say that the God of love would afflict any one of the people that Jesus died for is ludicrous! The account of the Isrealites is in Exodus.
God is now pleased to reconsile all things to himself in Christ. According to His predetermined will, from before the foundation of the World.
Any more to come? This is good for me, I hope you'll get something eternal out of this.
Be Blessed,
Bryan
Hi Anonymous,
Everyone seems to miss in one way or another. We are not pefect yet. Consider Jesus who was full of grace and truth. Everyone knows that God gives grace to endure. How many have stopped to see that grace also heals. Jesus healed all who came to him. That can be said this way, grace healed all that came for healing.
I for one am happy for the light that my own mother has, but I will not build a monument and stop were her knowledge of the ways of God ends. I will go on the strive for the mark of His high calling.
Jesus died to put away our sin and infirmities (illness and disease). As recorded in Is:53.
Be Blessed,
Pete
"To say that the God of love would afflict any one of the people that Jesus died for is ludicrous!"
Who flooded the earth? Who sent the plagues? He is a God of love, but He is also a just God. He does punish. He does hate. He doesn't hate the sinner, but He hates the sin.
"So I conclude that only good comes from God, and that will not change, He will not ever give bad or evil, or sickness, or etc.."
God is the Final Judge, correct? God decides if you get into Heaven or Hell, correct? Not everyone goes to Heaven, correct? Although we decide if we sin or not, God has the ability to open the doors of Heaven. If God does not open the doors of Heaven to someone is He unforgiving? Is He giving "good" to that person? God made us of flesh and with a will. Are these "good" things? Do they not cause us to sin? Don't get me wrong, I love God, and I believe He is my Savior, and only through Him will I be saved. We are to live life as close to His Word as possible, but no man is perfect. Therefore, it is ludicrous to believe that "only good comes from God." Seeing as he made man.
"I for one am happy for the light that my own mother has, but I will not build a monument and stop were her knowledge of the ways of God ends."
WHAT??!??
Actually, I can say that for the entire post.
WHAT??!??
I don't follow...
"Jesus died to put away our sin and infirmities (illness and disease)."
I guess you missed my point. I was speaking of the pain Jesus had to endure.
Anonymous,
There is a trouble-maker in the earth, his name is Satan, who also has a host of angel's in his domain. This is the source of all evil in the earth. And all suffering and sin of man. Men are born in darkness, apart from the life of God. At different times in the history of man God had to send righteous judgements into the earth to preserve a seed of man through whom the savior would come. The Lord delights in mercy, but to redeem man costs had to be made. As in the deliverance of Israel. So that the good will of God could be accomplished. It was because of the sinfulness of man that these things had to be done. Not that God delights in the death of the sinner. But rather that they be saved. Before the coming of Christ Jesus, God judged the world according to there deeds and the heart of man. A full treatment of this is in Paul's letter to the Romans.
God made all things perfect; if the angel's rebelled does that make God's creation bad or evil? If man joined in that rebellion does that make God bad or evil? So God made man and angel's free to choose, is he then responsible for there choices? Yes. Though He himself is free from bad or evil. To the angel's who had full knowledge of the true and eternal God, the banishment from his presence, and the righteous judgement of the full measure of the guilt that is their's. To man; the sacrifice of His own begotten Son, to redeem man from his lost state and restore him to that of "the sons of God" for which he was created. In all of this God is pure and without blemish or fault, rather Holy and rigtheous and just. His plan was and is to bring his life to man, even at the cost of the death of his son. That's mercy. To say that this merciful God would do anything bad or evil is a slap in His face. He has made a way of redeemption available to all men. They are free to chose his way, or pay the consequence of their own way. If some chose not to believe does that make God evil? No one in Hell can accuse God and blame him for their being there!!
No, you missed my point, "Jesus died to put away OUR sin and infirmities". Not his own, he was sin-less. Not his infirmities, those of man. If he carried them away, then we are free of these. He suffered so we wouldn't have to, as it says; "This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." Matt 8:17. He who the Son sets free, is free indeed.
Obviously we could continue on this like a never-ending merry-go-round! And we probably aren't gonna change each other's minds.
Tests and trials are directly from the hand of God:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction. (Ex 16:4)
Moses said to the people, " Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." (Ex 20:20)
Examine me, O LORD, and try me; Test my mind and my heart. (Psalm 26:2)
I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deed. (Jer 17:10)
Yet, O LORD of hosts, You who test the righteous, Who see the mind and the heart; Let me see Your vengeance on them; For to You I have set forth my cause. (Jer 20:12)
And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'" (Zec 13:9)
For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. (2 Cor 2:9)
And one of my personal favorites:
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained R202 our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:1-5)
Bryan, you're a good guy, truly you are. Where are your Scriptures to back up this notion that God desires us all healthy and wealthy?
True, Scripture says that every good and perfect gift comes for the Father. Yes, indeed. And it means just that. Our blessings ARE from God. But you are assuming that illness or being 'not wealthy' are altogether "bad" things. I submit that they're not! God's power is strong in weakness. Paul said:
And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
Whatever drives us to hunt out God IS good. Whatever He chooses to use to cause us to humble ourselves before Him IS good.
*~*~*~
I'll say this again (I know I said it *somewhere* this week. :) There is a huge danger in *making up* theology about God so that we can *feel* better about Him. Truth is, just as He is merciful, gracious and abounding in love, He is also a just, righteous and holy God.
Just as Broken Messenger stated, it was God who caused those things that he listed.
Anyway, I'm getting tired and need to get off the computer for the night. (hopefully!)
"The Lord delights in mercy, but to redeem man costs had to be made."
"To say that this merciful God would do anything bad or evil is a slap in His face."
You contradict yourself. "costs had to be made" Were these "costs" good? Good came from them, but the "costs" were not good. Were there no other decent people when God flooded the earth? It you would be like telling you, sorry, but since the world is becoming an evil place, I must kill you and your family. Is that good? If anyone else were to nearly destroy the world's population, it would not be considered good. I understand why He did it, but it doesn't make it good.
No one ever said God has done anything evil. Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other on what "good" or "bad" is. What I mean as "good" is what we would see as "good." God almost destroyed the world to make it a better place. God did this for a "good" reason. But, we, the world, would see killing thousands upon thousands of people as a "bad" thing. Some people might wonder why God didn't just make people behave better. That would be doing a "good" thing for a "good" reason. Maybe we are just disagreeing on semantics?
"Sin causes problems; not God. In the church of Thyatira, Jesus warned that unless they repented they were placing themselves into an enemy camp, and would suffer the consquences.
Truely God is to be Glorified. Because He is able to use evil for good doesn't mean that He needs evil to show His goodness. He is good, period."
Bryan, we certainly agree and it seems we are arriving at the same conclusion (in fact I just used Ja. 1:17 to make points very similar to yours in a recent of my own)...good to see we are in agreement here and to see that we arrived at the same overall conclulsion. Thank you for the greeting and welcome.
Brad
Gayla,
Again, trial and tribulation is in the world because the world is ruled by darkness. These things show to the world that we are the servants of God by our unwaivering faith and overcoming through Christ. The cross showed the love of God, our light affliction shows that we are of God.
The word of God tests man, look at Abraham, who believed in spite of his and Sarah's age. Who by faith gained the promise of Isaac.
Think through your last arguement; on sickness and poverty. When was the last time being poor was a blessing? Even in the Proverbs, riches were a blessing, and good. And Job after his correction; was healed by God, and made to prosper twice as much as before.
As for sickness; that is obvious to be evil and bad in anyone's mind. You'd have to be an educated idiot to think other wise, and I know you to be smarter than that.
Be Blessed,
Bryan
Anonymous,
The english language is hard to be exact with, we agree that God is good and does what is righteous. The sinfulness of man has left Him with some very hard choses. Even to the death of His own Son.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Brad,
Thank you, and your welcome. We have had a lot of discussion as you can see. The points are of importance to the body of Christ. There remains a great deal of study and meditation to be done.
Be Blessed,
Bryan
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