A Leap of Faith
I have been found out, I'm not am educated man. I've been having a discussion with Gayla, a dear sister in the Lord. The issue's are the gifts of the Spirit, and tongues in particular. Well the questions are over my knowledge, I find I can't answer all the details. So I'll have to show how I've come to know about these things.
After my conversion I was very zealous for the Lord. From the start I would pray for anyone to be healed. My reason for this was that the Lord had given me his overwhelming love in my heart, and I just knew that this love would refuse no request to help any fellow man. And I found out time and time again that I was right. I could pray for healing of saint and sinner alike, either know to me or total strangers, and God would honor my prayer and heal. Do I have a gift of healing, No. How could I do this, I had no knowledge of word or scripture to lead me, no one else who was doing this, or even believed it was possible? How, A Leap of Faith.
Then we come to the "Gifts of the Spirit". I remember a fellow christian and I having a discussion. I asked, "do you know anything about these", he answered, "out church doesn't believe in them, but I know there are churchs who do". So I said, "then why don't we go and find out if this is from God?", he replied, "not me, if you go I'm not going". That was rediculous, if it was God, I wanted it, and I couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't trust God to give them good gifts. So I went to where the "gifts of the spirit" were taught and practiced. If you want to understand how to bake a cake, you go to a baker don't you. If you want to understand how something works, you go were it is working, simple isn't it.
I also went to a christian book-store and found authors who had experience and teaching on the "Gifts of the Spirit". My logic was, if I discribe home-made ice cream, like grandma made, if you had never had any, no matter how well I could discribe it, you couldn't know how good it was. So in my thinking anyone without this experience couldn't help on this issue. The Lord also at this time witnessed to me that it was from Him in a dream.
I sat with the pastor of this penecostal church, after some discussion I had him lay hands on me to impart the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I saw in the scripture that the Spirit was imparted by the apostle's hand's. I had also gained this understanding, "when you pray, believe that you recieve, and you shall have what you ask for". This is faith, know that it is given, and act on it. So when he layed his hand on me, I started to speak what ever sound that would come out of my mouth. The articulation eventually got clearer, as with a baby, the sounds have meaning and are formed by the Holy Spirit. Our part is to speak and give voice. As the scripture says, "THEY ALL SPOKE as the Spirit gave them utterance". The Spirit will not speak for you, you speak and He gives the voice meaning.
There is also the issue of "cleaness or santification". I found out later that there were people who had sought this experience for years. And were waiting for some kind of "Divine Approval" so they could recieve. This is like telling a sinner, "when you clean up your mess and live right God will save you," if that was the case NO-ONE could ever be saved! The Holy Spirit will enpower you to live right, you can't do it on your own! Another issue is those who at one time or another spoke in tongues and were now waiting for the Spirit to move on them to do it again. This is wrong, the gift of the Spirit has been given, not loaned, not dished out as the need arises, given, you have Him, exercise your faith and SPEAK, He is there to take a-hold together with you and pray the will of God into your life.
This is my defence. I haven't yet been to a university, I have cheated, I've used the wisdom of other men of God. For this short coming, the Lord has used me to minister healings and other manifestations of the Lord, in a total of seven different denominations of churchs, have been ordained into a fellowship of ministers, have seen people saved healed and deliverer in resturants, parking lots, gas stations, 7-11, and in parks. So I have tricked you, I was not after your intellect, I'm not trying to make you smart, I'm wanting to make you hungery and thristy for the reality of the power and presence of the Lord. To hear His voice, to know His love, to be moved with His compassion, and to bring Him Glory!
After my conversion I was very zealous for the Lord. From the start I would pray for anyone to be healed. My reason for this was that the Lord had given me his overwhelming love in my heart, and I just knew that this love would refuse no request to help any fellow man. And I found out time and time again that I was right. I could pray for healing of saint and sinner alike, either know to me or total strangers, and God would honor my prayer and heal. Do I have a gift of healing, No. How could I do this, I had no knowledge of word or scripture to lead me, no one else who was doing this, or even believed it was possible? How, A Leap of Faith.
Then we come to the "Gifts of the Spirit". I remember a fellow christian and I having a discussion. I asked, "do you know anything about these", he answered, "out church doesn't believe in them, but I know there are churchs who do". So I said, "then why don't we go and find out if this is from God?", he replied, "not me, if you go I'm not going". That was rediculous, if it was God, I wanted it, and I couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't trust God to give them good gifts. So I went to where the "gifts of the spirit" were taught and practiced. If you want to understand how to bake a cake, you go to a baker don't you. If you want to understand how something works, you go were it is working, simple isn't it.
I also went to a christian book-store and found authors who had experience and teaching on the "Gifts of the Spirit". My logic was, if I discribe home-made ice cream, like grandma made, if you had never had any, no matter how well I could discribe it, you couldn't know how good it was. So in my thinking anyone without this experience couldn't help on this issue. The Lord also at this time witnessed to me that it was from Him in a dream.
I sat with the pastor of this penecostal church, after some discussion I had him lay hands on me to impart the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I saw in the scripture that the Spirit was imparted by the apostle's hand's. I had also gained this understanding, "when you pray, believe that you recieve, and you shall have what you ask for". This is faith, know that it is given, and act on it. So when he layed his hand on me, I started to speak what ever sound that would come out of my mouth. The articulation eventually got clearer, as with a baby, the sounds have meaning and are formed by the Holy Spirit. Our part is to speak and give voice. As the scripture says, "THEY ALL SPOKE as the Spirit gave them utterance". The Spirit will not speak for you, you speak and He gives the voice meaning.
There is also the issue of "cleaness or santification". I found out later that there were people who had sought this experience for years. And were waiting for some kind of "Divine Approval" so they could recieve. This is like telling a sinner, "when you clean up your mess and live right God will save you," if that was the case NO-ONE could ever be saved! The Holy Spirit will enpower you to live right, you can't do it on your own! Another issue is those who at one time or another spoke in tongues and were now waiting for the Spirit to move on them to do it again. This is wrong, the gift of the Spirit has been given, not loaned, not dished out as the need arises, given, you have Him, exercise your faith and SPEAK, He is there to take a-hold together with you and pray the will of God into your life.
This is my defence. I haven't yet been to a university, I have cheated, I've used the wisdom of other men of God. For this short coming, the Lord has used me to minister healings and other manifestations of the Lord, in a total of seven different denominations of churchs, have been ordained into a fellowship of ministers, have seen people saved healed and deliverer in resturants, parking lots, gas stations, 7-11, and in parks. So I have tricked you, I was not after your intellect, I'm not trying to make you smart, I'm wanting to make you hungery and thristy for the reality of the power and presence of the Lord. To hear His voice, to know His love, to be moved with His compassion, and to bring Him Glory!
posted by pete porter | 10:49 AM
5 Comments:
Obviously, I'm no scholar myself, Bryan. :) Any and all truth is revealed by God. But sometimes I filter it through my natural bent toward sin, and get it wrong! I pray that God continues to give me His grace for humility.
I don't doubt for a second that your experiences are real and of God. It actually sounds like He has imparted gifts of healing and supernatural faith on you. And these can only come from God! What a testament to His sovereignty and grace.
This is where I see that we differ. (and I get some of this from also reading your Walk By Faith post)
It seems like your saying that we receive gifts by what *we* do, or how much faith *we* have. (and by we, I mean Believers) I look at it this way: God alone is sovereign. He imparts gifts as He deems fit. At the risk of offending here, I do not ascribe to a "name it and claim it" type of theology. Not that you do, but this is just a rather blunt way of putting it. That I 'speak it' or 'want it' doesn't mean that God will grant it - whatever the "it" might be. He will accomplish His plans and purposes through me in the ways He chooses.
Our experiences are important, no doubt, but how they line up with Scripture is more important. That's why you have to come face to face with the Corinthians verses I quoted. Clearly, not all Believers possess all the gifts. They just don't. Just as we all cannot the the *ear* or the *eye* of the body.
And it's reality that not all people are healed. They weren't in the biblical accounts and they're not today. Faithful men/women of God suffer with illness, etc. It is thru our trials that we learn to persevere:
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; Romans 5:3-4
I'm still waiting, Bryan... Are you gonna address the Corinthian verses? :)
When we (as in me too) are faced with the truth in Scripture, do we ignore it, or do we allow it to change us? Do we 'make up' theology or doctrine about God just to make us "feel" better about ourselves or about God?
And believe me, I know of what I speak. A year and a half ago, you couldn't have paid me to believe in the gifts of the Spirit, or anything of the more 'supernatural' aspects of God. He has really opened my eyes to so much truth.
OK, sorry this is more like a dissertation than a comment. Yikes!!! But I am enjoying the discussion.
Hi Gayla,
As I wrote to Teresa, I want to be president of the "glab it and grab it", "name it and claim it", and "what you say is what you get" clubs! The "it" in all of this is only "the word of promise", not asking for silly things of this world. I want everything that God has already promised me! And that's a lot.
God in his sovereignty has decided to do every thing by his word. He has given us his word to be partakers of his life and goodness. To ask for Him to bring His word into our life honors Him and His word.
I'm out of time right now, so I will come back and explain other points when I get back, either tomorrow or the next day. In the mean time,
Be Blessed,
Bryan
Bryan, I love the discussion. However, I'm really trying to provide Scripture to back up what I'm saying. I'm wondering why you do not address the 1 Corinthians verses. ????
The fact is that God does not promise good health, healing, prosperity, all gifts to all Believers. The Bible states clearly that there will be trials -
James 1:1-12; again Romans 5:3-4
And it clearly states not all have all gifts. 1 Cor 12.
This is the inherent flaw, as I see it, in the 'word of faith' movement. Just want it, speak it, have 'enough' faith and God grants it.
I believe that God is more about the business of bringing glory to His name - no matter what the circumstances. And He is interested in developing His children. It's pretty clear in Scripture that He does this through trials and sufferings. Look at the lives of Joseph, David, Moses, Paul, Peter et al, Stephen.
Hi Gayla,
I tried to answer earlier, but blogger ate it, so I'll try again. The I Cor12:27-31 is teaching orderly worship and assemblely. To defer to those who the Lord placed in positions of leaders-ship. It states clearly, "and in the church" this text is the order of authority and responsibility. So in that setting not all hold an office, even though they may be mature in the Lord.
The next thing I want to address is, "what *we* do, or how much faith *we* have. God has provided all things for life and godliness to all in Christ Jesus. Yet if any one doesn't receive the truth of the gospel, thy are still in darkness. But, "whosoever believes in the Son has eternal life". This shows that a person is responsible to accept and believe to be saved. So what we do or don't do, or what we say or don't say, we are accountable before God. Other wise how could God judge. So because God has given us a free will, we will have to answer for our choices.
Trials and tribulation are just that, not sickness and illness. III John 2, "I pray that you prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers". I think that the Holy Spirit through the Beloved apostle said exactly what God's will is.
"Not all have all gifts", the gift of the Holy Spirit is the person of God indwelling us, if I have Him the fullness of God lives in me. I'm sure that He is more than able to handle and supply for any situation. He's the fullness of gifts.
The faith movement was not the invention of man, but of God. From Abraham to the present, His plan, not mine or the churchs, but God.
God can get glory from a stone, He doesn't need any help with people suffering, He would rather heal, or how else can we explain Jesus ministry? God can transform us by His Spirit, and doesn't need any help.
What God would really like is for us to believe in His word, and act on it, and live by it, and speak it, and share the good news about God to those in darkness.
Good line of questions, and I know my answers are different than what ever else you may have been taught or thought.
Be Blessed,
Bryan
I addressed this on my blog. Too long for a comment!
Post a Comment
<< Home