Yielding part 2
The response from my last post has brought an issue I feel needs to be addressed. This is a portion of the comment;
Then what happen? They stop, they choke it back, they get a drink of water, or wipe their brow. Any thing to distract until they can regain composure, and control. Why? They didn't understand that the Spirit of God showed up to answer their prayer. To bring forth that blessing of the Lord in their midst. They haven't learned to yeild to the Spirit. Preacher if crying comes out of your mouth in this situation, then cry with all your might. If some unarticulate language comes out then shout it. You can give yourself over to God the Spirit. He will bring God's will to pass, yeild. Get beyond yourself and let God take over. You can't get beyond Him. And you will speak in tongues, and prophecy. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of phophesy.
I know from my own experience that yeilding to the leading of the Spirit results in blessing. And from history, there were two in England who would yield to God. With crying, and tears, and great humility, with groaning, and suplication to God. These two brought a revival to the whole nation. So my brothers we are more gifted than we at first believed. And the Lord will be glorified.
rev-ed said, ..you've put me in an interesting situation as you seem to be saying that if I do not speak in tongues then I am not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case, then how biblically can you prove such a thing?I will be glad to answer this. I also would ask a question. As a believer in Jesus who has been born again, and baptized into one Spirit with him; who told you that you could not speak in tongues? I submit that all who have received the Spirit may speak with tongues. By what authority? The words of Jesus;
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach he good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Mark 16:15Here is the word that not only can they, but they will. Your doctrine may not believe it, your head may not agree with it, but the Spirit in you can't deny himself. I see a phenomenon in churchs every week. The pastors have labored with prayer and study. They seek the Lord's direction and blessing on the flock. They go over their outline looking diligently for ways to improve the delievery, to find some way to make it memorable. Then they pour there hearts into the preaching. In the preaching the Lord will stir deeply in their hearts and touch them, you can see the eyes moisten, you can here the voice quiver, you can see there posture change, and you know something deep is in the works.
Then what happen? They stop, they choke it back, they get a drink of water, or wipe their brow. Any thing to distract until they can regain composure, and control. Why? They didn't understand that the Spirit of God showed up to answer their prayer. To bring forth that blessing of the Lord in their midst. They haven't learned to yeild to the Spirit. Preacher if crying comes out of your mouth in this situation, then cry with all your might. If some unarticulate language comes out then shout it. You can give yourself over to God the Spirit. He will bring God's will to pass, yeild. Get beyond yourself and let God take over. You can't get beyond Him. And you will speak in tongues, and prophecy. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of phophesy.
I know from my own experience that yeilding to the leading of the Spirit results in blessing. And from history, there were two in England who would yield to God. With crying, and tears, and great humility, with groaning, and suplication to God. These two brought a revival to the whole nation. So my brothers we are more gifted than we at first believed. And the Lord will be glorified.
posted by pete porter | 10:59 AM
19 Comments:
Amen Pete, What you describe is also my experience. Such a revelation requires submission to the promptings of the H.S. A great post.
Thank you Maverick, we all under estimate the willingness and gifting of the Spirit. But we are growing.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Test on Comments
Pete,
May I ask, what is the significance of baptism, other than being a requirement of speaking in tongues? You might think I'm really stupid for asking this, but does the Holy Spirit have a job to do? I know it sounds really stupid but I couldn't think of another way to put. I mean, God is the creator. Right? Jesus is the way to salvation. Right? So, does the Holy Spirit just hand out rewards? I'm sorry to bother you with all my questions...
OK, so are you also saying then that I can drink poison and be unharmed? Pick up snakes? That's the same paragraph.
Two things about this passage in Mark 16. One is that the is much debate whether the "long ending" for Mark is indeed original or a later addition. That's a textual debate that I doubt either of us are qualified to discuss, but I do mention it as it's footnoted in most modern versions.
The second is that the text does not say that everyone will possess all of these gifts -- only that those signs will be found among those who believe. Again, there is no text in Scripture which states that all believers are able to speak in tongues. I'd return to 1 Corinthians 12 to point out that if you look at those gifts, you see that it applies to believers within the church. Paul says all believers do not speak in tongues, and in fact downplays the role of tongues, especially without interpretation. Absolutely no mention of tongues in private worship is mentioned, although I would contend that a gift in context to the church would equal a gift in context to private use.
I fully agree with your example of squashing the movement of the Holy Spirit in preaching. I rarely get through a sermon without a tear rolling down my cheek. The Lord has spoken through me on numerous occasions, giving me words to speak which I certainly did not prepare and seemingly had little control over. Yet I've never been moved by the Spirit, even in the slightest way, to speak in a language I don't understand. Scripturally that all makes perfect sense. I know that God has gifted me and uses me. And at the same time I see no call no feel any leading of the Spirit to use tongues or even seek them. I am open to His leading.
I have no problem with the gift of tongues. If you or anyone else has been given that gift and you have someone to interpret your speech in public, that's wonderful. But to say that it is available to all simply isn't backed up by Scripture.
As a aside, I do really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this issue with you. Iron sharpening iron, my brother. I feel sharper already! ;)
Cosmic,
It's a delight to answer your questions if I can. Baptism in water is a declaration before man that you are a follower of God through Jesus. Baptism in the spirit is the life of God being imparted in you. This is done by God upon your confession of faith in His Son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, and acceptance before God. The Holy Spirit is also God, he is the one who imparts the life of God in us. So it's God who lives in us, to fulfill the plan of the Father.
I hope this helps, I have a lot to say but I don't want you to lose your simple trust, that's more valuable than to much learning. Go slow, go in peace, and in your joy.
Be Blessed,
Pete
My dear brother rev-ed,
I wish to study your comments, and wait on the Lord before I reply. Till tomorrow, Be Blessed.
Pete
Rev-ed,
I think if you drank poison by accident the Lord would see you suffered no loss. I have heard witnesses of the Lord testify to being poisoned by the ones to whom the Lord had sent them, and it had no ill effect on any of them. This was the testimony of the church in Indoneisa. The taking up snakes, is authority over the creatures of the earth. Daniel received this, and Paul on Malta walked in this. It was given to Adam before the fall, and now restored in Christ. I for one believe in the power of God through Christ to restore all things. And to keep us for his purpose, not subject to the powers of darkness on this world. I have already written on who may speak in tongues. Again, Paul said, "I would like EVERY ONE OF YOU to speak in tongues". I'll paraphrase it; "thus sayeth the Spirit of God, it is my desire that you all shall speak in tongues". Ask, seek, knock, and you shall receive. Do you like chocolate? It is good, so we desire it. So with the gifts. As you know there is nothing to compare to being useful to the Lord. If you don't know the goodness of the gift of tongues, then you are missing out, the same as if you never had chocolate. Also you are limiting your usefulness to the Lord.
As for the other questions, I refere you to our brother Phil. Who has posted in these comments. That every word be established in two or three witnesses.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Phil, you are right and I am right. Paul put tongues in their proper context by downplaying them. The Corinthian church was ga-ga over tongues and Paul tried to get it under control. Make sense?
Phil and Pete, the Scriptures each of you have posted do not state that all believers speak in tongues, and in fact say just the opposite. Again, the Word just doesn't say that all believers will speak in tongues. It may be spiritually wonderful. It may be something which is very enriching. But my original objection stands. To say that tongues is the first evidence of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit goes beyond what Scripture says.
BTW, Pete, you aren't trying to get me to try poison, are you? ;)
Rev-ed,
If you did I would pray that God would prevent any harm.
Peter at cornelius house,"..were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them SPEAKING IN TONGUES and praising God." It was the evidence to Peter.
I am not saying all speak in tongues, I am saying all may speak in tongues. The Lord will not force us to do anything.
Be Blessed,
Pete
I am delighted to come in the middle of this conversation, Praise the Lord!
Rev-ed, there are instances in the bible of the Holy Spirit Baptism, not all of them experience the speaking of tongues. Some do, some don't. I agree with Pete and Phil,it is a gift that is available to all and if it is the Lord's will, you will receive tongues as a prayer language. I do not agree that Paul was downplaying the gift of tongues at all; as Brother Phil said he was bringing correction to the Corinthian church.
The gift of tongues is one that is meant to be interpreted. It is one of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gift of tongues as a prayer language is what CAN occur as a result of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. Not everyone recieves this right away after being baptised. Some receive tongues immediately.
This is one way that Paul describes this prayer language:
1Co 14:2 'Those who speak in strange tongues do not speak to others but to God, because no one understands them. They are speaking secret truths by the power of the Spirit.'
My goodness,there is so much fantastic teaching in the word of God on these issues. It will take me writing a book to explain it all. Go willing, maybe I will one day! Hope that helps! God Bless All!!!
Karen,
Thank you for your words of encouragement and instruction. I appreciate your willingness to speak of the grace of God in your life, Be Blessed.
Phil,
Thank you for the fine defence of the truth of the work of the Spirit, and for your gracious attitude of gentleness.
Rev-ed,
Thank you for posting a question that I am sure is in the minds of a lot of the Lord's people. I hope that these witnesses will be valuable in the work of the kingdom that the Lord Jesus may be glorified.
Be Blessed All,
Pete
Pete and Phil, thanks for the clarification about "having to" speak in tongues if you are a Christian. That is not how I took the original comment -- perhaps a misunderstanding on my part. Anyway, your posts make more sense to me now. My "obsession" with showing that not all spoke in tongues was based upon that faulty understanding.
Now if you don't like the word "downplaying" then how about saying that Paul wanted the Corinthians to seek greater gifts instead of simply longing for the ability to speak in tongues. That was the intent behind my words.
We still don't exactly agree, but that's fine. I find myself with the point which karen brought out, "if it is the Lord's Will" being the key phrase. It may not be the Lord's Will for all Christians to speak in tongues. But I think we've hashed it out pretty well.
I do have an honest question for you guys (and all who speak in a prayer language): What is it that you get through the experience of praying in tongues that I do not get through silence in prayer? I'm not trying to be pragmatic about the whole thing, but just trying to find an advantage to speaking to God when you don't know what you are saying.
I appreciate this conversation greatly.
Rev-ed,
It is hard to answer those questions in some respects, because I , like Paul, pray with my own tongue and my prayer language(s). Scripture says that when we do not know what to pray the Spirit intercedes on our behalf. Sometimes can be through groanings or the Spirit. When I pray in tongues, I often will feel an immense power surge of the Holy Spirit,like I have been plugged into an outlet. I have had incredible experiences also praying in my own tongue. I guess really, the major difference is that it is the Holy Spirit, not me. When I do not know how to pray, He always knows how to pray for me.
Rev-ed,
I think you have been very gracious. I appreciate you new question. I look forward to Phil's new posts. And will also be watching Karen's site. As for myself I will make a post to answer from my own experience. Again I am sure this is important to a lot of christianity.
Thanks to All, and Be Blessed.
Pete
Thanks to all. I'll review all the stuff after my l-o-n-g Memorial Day weekend (it will last through Wednesday for me!)
Hi Pete and everyone,
First off, Pete, what a great blog! Thanks for writing from your heart and with gentleness and respect for the views of others. I also am a Spirit-filled Christian, and while I agree with much of what has been said, I do disagree on one major point. I believe the New Testament teaches the gift of the indwelling of the Spirit as a separate experience from that of receiving the infilling of the Spirit. For example look at John 20:21-22:
"Again Jesus said, 'Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.' And with that He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'"(NIV)
So in the above instance, the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet Jesus, upon His ascension, still commanded the disciples to wait in Jerusalem. Why? Well, for one, look at where Jesus found the disciples after His resurrection: hiding for fear of the Jews. After receiving the infilling of the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, they went out boldly and preached the gospel with great effectiveness (thousands got saved during Peter's first sermon!). What matters here is not the speaking in tongues, it's the power, God's power, which flowed through them to bring unbelievers to Christ. Also, in studying the book of Acts, you will see five incidents where the Scripture speaks of believers being filled with the Spirit for the first time. These are found in chapters 2, 8, 9, 10, and 19. For sake of brevity, I'll let you look up those references yourself. I'll list briefly the reasons each fits the pattern of tongues as evidence of the infilling of the Spirit.
Acts 2 : This incident occurred after the believers were saved (i.e. received the indwelling). The recorded evidence was tongues, both spoken and "tongues of fire."
Acts 8 : This is the incident involving a great crowd of new believers, and Simon the sorcerer. While this passage does not use the phrase "filled with the Spirit," you may assume the people already had the indwelling of the Spirit, as the Scriptures tell us they had already accepted the Word of God. The rest of Scripture teaches clearly that we receive the Holy Spirit by grace through faith, and that is how we are saved. Back to Acts 8... The Spirit was poured out upon the believers, and Simon tried to buy the ability to lay hands on people and have them receive the Holy Spirit. While it does not specifically say they spoke in tongues, it does say Simon "saw" that the Spirit was being given, and aside from that, something had to have taken place which caused Simon to desire this gift.
Acts 9 : This involves Saul/Paul receiving the infilling of the Spirit. He also was already a believer, as Ananias refers to him as "brother." Did Paul speak in tongues? Read 1 Corinthians 14:18.
Acts 10 : The Spirit was poured out upon the Gentiles. This reference was already mentioned by Pete in an earlier comment, so I'll simply add that again, in determining whether or not this happened subsequent to initial salvation, the exception must fit the pattern, not vice versa. You wouldn't change the whole pattern of teaching in Scripture simply to make it fit one exception, right?
Acts 19 : Again, the Spirit was poured out upon believers, this time immediately following their acceptance of the Gospel. Again, the evidence of tongues occurred, and in this case, prophecy as well. So why not teach prophecy as always accompanying the infilling of the Spirit? Notice the only evidence consistently displayed throughout the New Testament in relation to the infilling of the Spirit is that of speaking in tongues.
Hmmm... I hope this makes sense. In any case, it is so wonderful to be able to discuss these things in an gentle and loving environment with other Christians. Thanks, Pete, for posting about this!
-Brooke
I came into this sort of late and I read all of your comments. I am just beginning to be comfortable with all of this, spending most of my Christian life in a Presbyterian and then So. Baptist, stuffy environment. I understand rev'd's perspective, but the Lord is teaching me that we cannot put Him in a box--He can do anything He wants and He has done things in me that I never could think or imagine. My husband (also a Pastor)and I are struggling with un-learning stuff that we were previously doing that was not led by the Holy Spirit but by man. There are many things in the Bible that are contrary to our logical minds: Jesus being both God and Man, for one, so why should we be so perplexed about this? Pete is right, when we open our minds and hearts completely to Him, we allow the Spirit of God to move within us in whatever way He wants--sometimes tongues--after all, He is God.
Brooke,
Nice to hear from you, and thanks for the comments. The two experiences is according to scripture. I would like to elaborate on this issue in a post, perhaps this week. The validity of the gifts, and their availablity to the believers, and use and value also needs to be clarified. Brother Phil has posted two excellent teachings at his site, I recommend reading them.
Be Blessed,
Pete
Hi Teresa,
Good to hear from you again, and of course you may use what-ever you like. I was also raised Baptist so I understand the new-ness and the unlearning. There is good teaching at Phil's site on this issue, it is very instructive. There are a couple other issues that I should post on, maybe this week. The bottom line of all this is to grow in the knowing, and loving, and being useful to the Lord. That He be glorified.
Be Blessed,
Pete
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